tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post2422672830082648268..comments2024-03-24T11:03:03.106-07:00Comments on Just Genesis : Is a Presbyter a Priest?Alice C. Linsleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13069827354696169270noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-63811271343447228422015-09-15T10:32:56.937-07:002015-09-15T10:32:56.937-07:00Clearly a distinction should be made between elder...Clearly a distinction should be made between elders and priests. From ancient times, priests has always been linked to animal sacrifice. That is not true of elders.Alice C. Linsleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13069827354696169270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-92225238711901864942015-09-14T14:52:06.726-07:002015-09-14T14:52:06.726-07:00Here is a discussion on the topic.
https://sites....Here is a discussion on the topic.<br /><br />https://sites.google.com/site/faithonlyreviewed/home/presbyter-not-priest<br /><br />Catholics have long held that a Presbyter was a Priest. This is untrue, presbyter could be used of any council member or chief officer. Priests could sit on councils but not all councils were priests.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />The Jewish Sanhedrin were known as Elders (presbyter), only a handful of the Sanhedrin were actually priests.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />High Priest officiated (later the High Priest was replaced by a sage)<br /><br />Tribal heads <br /><br />Scribes (lawyers)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />In New Testament times presbyter meant elder. A priest could be elder of his own tribe, thus could be a presbyter, but presbyter did not mean priest.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Since a few Priests were elders Catholics have purposely misused the term to create the false impression presbyter meant priest.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18422415056805249975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-71293706275587291552009-06-23T15:01:20.266-07:002009-06-23T15:01:20.266-07:00You might want to look at 2 Chronicles 15:3 which ...You might want to look at 2 Chronicles 15:3 which speaks of a teacher-priest, but appears to distinguish this from the role of priest as intercessor who offers sacrifice.Alice C. Linsleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13069827354696169270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-43978455882313338652009-06-22T18:01:30.509-07:002009-06-22T18:01:30.509-07:00David, as this question poses a challenge to the f...David, as this question poses a challenge to the forming Anglican Church in North America and also to the universal Church, it would be helpful to open a forum at your blog. Go for it! I look forward to reading what you have to say and will comment.<br /><br />Please leave another comment here with your blog's URL so readers can go there for further comments.Alice C. Linsleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13069827354696169270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-25276876530112096442009-06-22T17:45:14.302-07:002009-06-22T17:45:14.302-07:00Alice, would it be ok if I published up a detailed...Alice, would it be ok if I published up a detailed reponse on my own blog? I think this topic requires something like that.<br /><br />And no offence taken over the misnaming - trust me, happens all the time.<br /><br />I forgot to answer your previous post - I would simply love to see you do some further study. A phd would be of benefit to many of us, especially those of us who instinctively disagree - there's nothing more stimulating that disagreeing with someone who is well thought through!David Ouldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10622248017352143637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-30165142443198014112009-06-22T12:46:10.848-07:002009-06-22T12:46:10.848-07:00Sorry, David, I didn't mean to confuse you wit...Sorry, David, I didn't mean to confuse you with Peter.Alice C. Linsleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13069827354696169270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-21792326354749713152009-06-22T12:44:20.625-07:002009-06-22T12:44:20.625-07:00You might find this of interest: http://www.forwar...You might find this of interest: http://www.forwardinfaith.com/artman/publish/article_487.shtml<br /><br />Forward in Faith may be the leaven in the loaf.Alice C. Linsleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13069827354696169270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-11594801539320667032009-06-22T06:02:48.846-07:002009-06-22T06:02:48.846-07:00If the presbyter is only a teacher, his office doe...If the presbyter is only a teacher, his office doesn't point to the Presence of the Blood/Cross, which St. Paul sees at the center of our Faith. This is how Paul keeps Christianity from the spiritual vagueness of the Gnostics. Setting this aside has allowed much of Protestantism to slide in gnostic theology. <br /><br />St. Paul writes of Reality as the pleromic “mystery of Christ” and he identifies this as the heart of the Gospel. It is the central message of the Apostle’s writings and the Reality of which the Creeds speak.<br /><br />Jesus Christ is the fullness (“pleroma”) of all things in heaven and on earth, both invisible and visible. The term “pleroma” was used among the Gnostics to describe the metaphysical unity of all things, but Paul uses it to speak about how all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Christ in human bodily form (Col. 2:9).<br /><br />Against the Gnostics, the biblical writers used this concept to explain that the mystical Body of Christ fills heaven (glorified Saints and Heroes of Faith) and earth (militant Saints). Reality, is constituted of the fullness of all things hidden and revealed in Christ. Paul wants the churches to understand that they are “entrusted with the mysteries of God”, so that they may faithfully proclaim Reality so that truth-seekers “may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ” (I Cor. 4:1, Eph. 3:9 and Col. 2:2). This is why I have written that "Reality is Cross-shaped" here: http://jandyongenesis.blogspot.com/2009/03/reality-is-cross-shaped.html<br /><br />For the Gnostics, the pleroma is undifferentiated, but for Paul the pleroma is the manifestation of the benefits of the “Blood of Jesus.” Paul never allows the churches to wander far from the Blood of Jesus that brings eternal life. The presbyter not only teaches about His Blood, he is a sign pointing to His Blood (as much as he is "in Christ.").<br /><br />Paul articulated his understanding of the pleroma as early as his second missionary journey when he preached to the Athenians that, “in Him [Jesus Christ] we live and move and have our being.” (Acts 17:28) Paul’s thoughts on this developed further as he continued to reflect on the Hebrew Scriptures, prayed and fasted, and received greater illumination by Christ. We find the fullest expression of the pleroma in Romans and in Ephesians: "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times, He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth. (Ephesians 1:7-10) And in Hebrews we find that the priesthood of the Son of God is connected to the "order of Melchizedek". This distinguishes the Christian presbyter from priests of faiths that reject Jesus Christ, Son of God.<br /><br />Finally, the priest of the Church does not perform blood sacrifices because that work of Jesus Christ is once and for all. (This is where we run into problems with Transubstantiation.) Orthodoxy recognizes the presence of the real Body and Blood in the Divine Liturgy, and as it also holds the binary distinctions of Scripture between heaven and earth, the ancient priest code requires that should the priest accidently cut himself and bleed in the presence of the Blood, he must immediately leave the holy place. There can be only one Blood that purifies, redeems and secures unto eternal life. The priesthood is the single institution on earth that represents this Reality. <br /><br />A teacher is no substitute for a priest. And were the presbyter only a teacher, Holy Tradition would not exclude women from the priesthood. Since blood is not involved if there is no priest... Besides, women gave instruction in ancient Israel (Deborah, Huldah).<br /><br />Peter! Let's hear more from you on this.Alice C. Linsleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13069827354696169270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-16683526508402357792009-06-22T00:21:26.493-07:002009-06-22T00:21:26.493-07:00where do you find this disjunction in Scripture?
...where do you find this disjunction in Scripture?<br /><br />You find it in the NT descriptions of the role of the presbyter. He is a teacher, not a priest. If even one instance of a sacerdotally priestly function for the presbyter could be demonstrated in Scripture then I'll gladly eat my hat.<br /><br />until then, I'm afraid Collins is right - the NT presbyter is not the equivalent of the OT priest, the Scriptures never make that association.David Ouldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10622248017352143637noreply@blogger.com