tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post3243865677571700024..comments2024-03-24T11:03:03.106-07:00Comments on Just Genesis : The Cosmic Serpent ExposedAlice C. Linsleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13069827354696169270noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-23528444765352488022009-04-17T19:01:00.000-07:002009-04-17T19:01:00.000-07:00It is one thing to be "spiritual" and an entirely ...It is one thing to be "spiritual" and an entirely different thing to be "catholic". Shamans are spiritual and recognize a good deal of Truth (more than most modern Westerners). However, their worldview and their practice is quite contrary to the catholic worldview and practice. Specifically, they communicate with spirits, something that Catholics are forbidden to do.<br />You may want to read the essay at on "Shamanic Practice and the Priesthood". This clarifies the difference. You will find it here: http://jandyongenesis.blogspot.com/2007/08/shamanic-practice-and-priesthood.htmlAlice C. Linsleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13069827354696169270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-79750816599435426912009-04-17T16:38:00.000-07:002009-04-17T16:38:00.000-07:00Alice,
I am a deeply spiritual Catholic and I beli...Alice,<br />I am a deeply spiritual Catholic and I believe that the book was brilliant. You betray cultural bias when you refer to those of the Amazon "stealing" knowledge. It has been useful and it has been given as a gift. Also, don't you realize the trance-like properties of deep prayer?Cathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02494581107019482069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-13301836950436180552008-09-01T08:14:00.000-07:002008-09-01T08:14:00.000-07:00Gyrus, thanks for your interesting and informative...Gyrus, thanks for your interesting and informative comment. You are quite right that shamans have a good appreciation of the dangers involved in their work with spirits and therefore require training. I agree with you also that empiricism has caused western people to lose sight of the reality of all things being one and the implications of this. <BR/><BR/>The history of Christian missionaries to tribal peoples involves the tragedy of failing to recognize the value of shamanism. The shaman and the priest play similar roles in their societies, but these offices also reflect very different worldviews. I believe that there is only one Reality and it is centered in the pleromic blood of Jesus Christ, testified to by the one Spirit that never lies.Alice C. Linsleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13069827354696169270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-274641103356841772008-09-01T06:43:00.000-07:002008-09-01T06:43:00.000-07:00They become, not the mouthpieces of serpents, but ...<I>They become, not the mouthpieces of serpents, but of angels.</I><BR/><BR/>Angels form a significant part of <I>mestizo</I> shamanism. Former Peruvian shaman Pablo Amaringo's next book of paintings will apparently detail his angelic encounters (view some <A HREF="http://headoverheels.org.uk/usko/gallery.html?m=browse&c=Pablo%27s+paintings&os=36" REL="nofollow">here</A>). Of course, serpents also play their part. I imagine the same "mixture" is true of the syncretic <I>ayahuasca</I> religions like Santo Daime. These combination seem natural given the intermingling of indigenous healing traditions with invading Christianity.<BR/><BR/>It should be stressed that shamans using <I>ayahuasca</I> aren't impotent mouthpieces for snake spirits - such an image seems like a hangover from colonial religious narrow-mindedness. Shamans are well aware that the areas they're dealing with are ambiguous and dangerous; hence the rigorous training. Just as we wouldn't just fire anyone, without training, into space, people negotiating with the spirit world on behalf of the community should be aware of its dangers and train accordingly. But, just as I wouldn't believe what someone told me about the moon if they'd never been there, I'm more inclined to pay heed to shamanic reports of spiritual matters than an entirely sober priesthood!<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that genuine communication with spirit has become more and more problematic as societies have grown in size. Actual experience (via plants or otherwise) has become demonized or has disappeared, replaced with linguistic dogma.<BR/><BR/>As to the "fallacy" of the idea that plant hallucinogens facilitate communication from Nature, I can't see a fallacy myself. Saying it's not Nature speaking because you have to neutralize a bodily enzyme is like saying you can't hear what's being said on the other side of a door that you can't take the time to unlock and open. Besides, how does the argument apply to mushrooms, which need no facilitation?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-80333402514704106322008-06-03T21:13:00.000-07:002008-06-03T21:13:00.000-07:00"I agree that avarice for knowledge not meant for ..."I agree that avarice for knowledge not meant for oneself can be dangerous, but isn't it often true that shamans are not self-chosen, but feel themselves chosen..."<BR/><BR/>Makes me think of the Mexican curandero, who oftentimes doesn't seek the power of healing, but it it passed onto him because he has the "don" or the gift of doing it. Most of the time they are just devout Catholics who are good with herbs, and most use Catholic prayers in their rituals. Then again, most of them don't go into trances. I have heard that many simply wished they could live ordinary lives, but have this office thrusted upon them anyway. This is the closest thing that we have to shamans around these parts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-37647688826930294952008-06-03T21:11:00.000-07:002008-06-03T21:11:00.000-07:00Dharmashaiva, You are correct. My friend, William...Dharmashaiva, You are correct. My friend, William Sauts, chief of the Umani Lenape is also a shaman. He was selected by the ranking women because he shows the "signs" associated with shamanism in that tribe.<BR/><BR/>Shamans and priests are called forth to serve the community. One doesn't become either by self-appointment. Shamans and priests serve similar functions in their societies, they address blood guilt, anxiety and division and within the community. But they represent different worldviews. To read more about this go here:<BR/>http://jandyongenesis.blogspot.com/2007/08/shamanic-practice-and-priesthood.htmlAlice C. Linsleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13069827354696169270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-81749401636637459802008-06-03T09:03:00.000-07:002008-06-03T09:03:00.000-07:00Alice,I agree that avarice for knowledge not meant...Alice,<BR/><BR/>I agree that avarice for knowledge not meant for oneself can be dangerous, but isn't it often true that shamans are not self-chosen, but feel themselves chosen, or called, to their particular life, often via a life-transforming illness or non-self-sough spiritual initiation?Agnikanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00494537340737199409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-24395556660450836362008-06-03T04:23:00.000-07:002008-06-03T04:23:00.000-07:00Mike, It seems to me that the "fall" was the resul...Mike, It seems to me that the "fall" was the result of stealing or taking what is not our's to take (what is forbidden). Instead we are to receive God's gifts with thanksgiving.<BR/><BR/>Arturo, indeed we can't reach God through our reason or knowledge. In the West we miss so much of the meaning in Genesis because we take a rational or empirical approach. So we miss symbol, sign, metaphor, pattern, images, etc. that Afro-Asiatic peoples would have seen readily. This site is dedicated to trying to recover that meaning. <BR/><BR/>Thomas Aquinas, doubtless the greatest intellect of the Latin Church, moved the West far in the direction of rationalism. HIs masterpiece, the Summa Theologiae, was left unfinished. It appears that he had a mystical experience 4months before his death during Mass. Thereafter he wrote nothing more. His explanation for this was "All that I have written seems to me like straw compared to what has now been revealed to me."<BR/><BR/>Here is the key: what has been revealed during the Mass, pure gift, freely given to all who receive, but hidden from those who would steal.Alice C. Linsleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13069827354696169270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-80071878097817924572008-06-02T13:13:00.000-07:002008-06-02T13:13:00.000-07:00Thank you for the comments. I suppose my only cave...Thank you for the comments. I suppose my only caveat is that I wouldn't want to think that communion with God is always a "rational" process and there is not place for ecstasy in these phenomena. (Not that I have ever experienced it.) In your own tradition, you have the saints beholding the uncreated light, and in ours we have the saints going into what would appear to be some sort of trance state in front of the Tabernacle, levitations, and other such things. True, these are extraordinary events that one should never aspire to. But I would still say that they are far from demonic. God on many occasions doesn't speak "rationally", if we mean this to be according to purely human reason. <BR/><BR/>That being said, since I grew up in a Catholic charismatic family, I have come to conclude that people speaking in tongues in the prayer meetings I was dragged to as a child was a bunch of hooey. I think the time for those charisms has passed, and to try to seek them or re-enact them now is a waste of time, or even as you insinuate, dangerous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-86982947055679046652008-06-02T12:53:00.000-07:002008-06-02T12:53:00.000-07:00Alice:I think you've hit upon the logical fallacy ...Alice:<BR/><BR/>I think you've hit upon the logical fallacy in Narby, but I'm not at all sure that shamanistic trances just <I>are</I> the forbidden "knowledge" of <I>Genesis</I>. It seems much more likely to me that the Fall resulted from the same desire for spiritual autonomy that causes the <I>prelest</I> evident in shamanism.<BR/><BR/>Best,<BR/>MikeMike Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18100363229707213441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-47514261552494839572008-06-02T07:59:00.000-07:002008-06-02T07:59:00.000-07:00'Commending' ourselves into God's care and protect...'Commending' ourselves into God's care and protection is a wise precaution. <BR/><BR/>Christ's words on the Cross, 'Into Thy Hands, I commend my spirit' are a powerful and appropriate prayer."<BR/><BR/>Absolutely! And making the sign of the cross. Fr. Rick Lobs has an interesting and informative piece on this here:<BR/>http://prayersthatmatter.blogspot.com/2008/06/sign-of-cross.html<BR/><BR/>In my comment posted there I write: "If facing East, the right to left movement represents moving from South to North. East and North are associated with God and the Logos. This is typical of the Eastern Church's belief in theosis or spiritual ascent.<BR/><BR/>If facing East, moving from left to right would represent God coming to earth (Incarnation). Also South represents the flesh, marriage and fertility."Alice C. Linsleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13069827354696169270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-87855708480932433512008-06-02T07:39:00.000-07:002008-06-02T07:39:00.000-07:00Hypnosis is also an act relinquishing control the ...Hypnosis is also an act relinquishing control the conscious mind - as much as a drug or trance, and makes a person vulnerable to encroachment infestation of evil spirits. I am very much against hypnosis for Christians.<BR/><BR/>Speaking in tongues, however, is under the control of the speaker and is recommended by St Paul as a means of edification and though it has become a matter of dispute in the Church, speaking in tongues is not dangerous except if it becomes a matter of competition or pride or is not interpreted purely and truly by the Holy Spirit but in the flesh. <BR/><BR/>Though Paul said he spoke in tongues 'more than' others, he would not have been boasting, because he boasted only in Christ and the Cross.<BR/><BR/>Other circumstances where the conscious mind and will are relinquished such as anesthesia for surgery and going to sleep at night are serious instances where evil might encroach as well and are occasions for taking serious measures for protecting oneself and asking for the spiritual support and covering of others' prayers. 'Commending' ourselves into God's care and protection is a wise precaution. <BR/><BR/>Christ's words on the Cross, 'Into Thy Hands, I commend my spirit' are a powerful and appropriate prayer. <BR/><BR/>GeorgiaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-18337249591739617052008-06-01T22:08:00.000-07:002008-06-01T22:08:00.000-07:00Bienvenido a Just Genesis, Senor Vasquez. The Apos...Bienvenido a Just Genesis, Senor Vasquez. <BR/><BR/>The Apostles were in Jerusalem for the 2 day feast of Pentecost. Pentecost was the Jewish harvest festival at which the first fruits were offered to the Lord. The Apostles spoke in actual languages that the gathered pilgrims understood. This marks the dawn of the Kingdom of God. <BR/><BR/>In Genesis 10 we are told that all the world spoke one language. This describes the Afro-Asiatic Dominion that extended from the Atlantic coast of modern Nigeria to the Indus River Valley. That vast dominion was ruled by chiefs who were related by blood and marriage. What happened at Pentecost speaks of the new eternal Dominion of Jesus Christ, Risen Lord.<BR/><BR/>St. Paul spoke in tongues, but regarded it as one of the least of the spiritual gifts since it did not always build up the Body of Christ.Alice C. Linsleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13069827354696169270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-36335082802906605712008-06-01T21:05:00.000-07:002008-06-01T21:05:00.000-07:00It's ironic that I was reading just yesterday abou...It's ironic that I was reading just yesterday about the Afro-Brazilian syncretic religion Santo Daime that uses this drug to go into trances that last all through the night. This was very informative.<BR/><BR/>I would tend to agree with the idea that trances may be the "forbidden knowledge" of Genesis. There seems to be a take-over of subjectivity that can be quite dangerous and demonic that takes place in these rituals. However, how would you then explain the speaking in tongues that occured at Pentecost? I am not one to advocate the speaking in tongues in our current day and age, but it is still something I ponder at times.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-41987100792667711802008-06-01T20:09:00.000-07:002008-06-01T20:09:00.000-07:00Georgia, Thanks for the great suggestion. I'll put...Georgia, Thanks for the great suggestion. I'll put together an Index of Topics and post a link in the sidebar. I also need to go back and link related essays.<BR/><BR/>There are several topics I'd like to cover in the months ahead. One is the relationship of the Afro-Asiatic mountain and sun symbolism to the horned altar and another addresses circumcision. <BR/><BR/>Circumcision is a blood ritual with at least 2 origin stories in the Bible. In Genesis, cirumcision is said to begin with Abraham who circumcised his sons. In Exodus, it is Zipporah, Moses' Midianite wife who does the circumcision. The stories are related because Midian was one of Abraham's son by Keturah. But I'll save the details for the up-coming essays.Alice C. Linsleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13069827354696169270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-58711062703430457042008-06-01T19:55:00.000-07:002008-06-01T19:55:00.000-07:00Patrick, I work quickly! : )Father thinks our prop...Patrick, I work quickly! : )<BR/><BR/>Father thinks our proposed study of Daniel is a good idea. He and Jeanette will cover how Daniel is used in the liturgy. Bob will present on the Kingdon of God in Daniel. I'll handle number symbolism, Nanny will cover Christ in Daniel, and you, our resident artist and art historian, will cover iconography related to Daniel. How cool is that!Alice C. Linsleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13069827354696169270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-69294082926507049542008-06-01T19:40:00.000-07:002008-06-01T19:40:00.000-07:00Dear Alice, This is off topic, but I have a coupl...Dear Alice, <BR/><BR/>This is off topic, but I have a couple of requests...<BR/><BR/>As you continue to write, your blog may need a topical index to help us find articles of interest.<BR/><BR/>Also, have you researched and written on the Abramic covenant and the circumcision? Do you see this covenant as a kind of redemption, restoration of God's holiness and reign in central aspects of human life (particularly sexuality and identity, in the symbolic act of cutting off excess flesh) lost in Fall. Hence the field trip to Sodom in the next chapter?<BR/><BR/>Thank you for sharing your extensive and fascinating research with us.<BR/><BR/>GeorgiaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-688820610845171516.post-5096962834328352212008-06-01T17:49:00.000-07:002008-06-01T17:49:00.000-07:00Alice,I was quite shocked when I got to your site ...Alice,<BR/>I was quite shocked when I got to your site and saw the cover of "The Cosmic Serpent" we had just been dicussing after liturgy. I think you covered the book well in your review. I went back to your earlier work on serpent symbolism and the Hebrew's connection of the serpent with forbidden knowledge. It reminded me again of Christ's words that He is "the gate" and that anyone who enters by another way "is a thief and a robber". It seems that THE serpent (Satan) uses, among other things, hallucinogenic drugs to "open the gate" of our minds in order to gain illicit access and impart forbidden knowledge.Patrick Adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05683581112453177178noreply@blogger.com